Interview with Max Baucus and Nell Calloway: China-U.S. Relations after Summit Meeting in San Francisco

Max Baucus served as the 11th U.S. Ambassador to the People’s Republic of China From 2014 to 2017. He was also served as a member of the United States House of Representatives from 1975 to 1978 and a United States senator from Montana from 1978 to 2014. During his tenure as both a Congressman and Ambassador, he contributed greatly to the development of China-U.S. economic and trade as well as diplomatic relations.

Nell Calloway is the granddaughter of General Chennault, the founder of the Flying Tigers, and CEO of the Chennault Aviation and Military Museum. She has visited China many times. By telling the story of the Flying Tigers and General Chennault, she is committed to promoting the common historical memory and deep friendship between China and the United States during World War II, and has made great contributions to the civil exchanges between the two countries.

On November 18, 2023, the Carter Center hosted the Jimmy Carter Conversation on U.S.-China Relations in San Francisco to discuss the outcomes of the just-concluded APEC Summit as well as the San Francisco summit between the Chinese and U.S. leaders. As guests at this forum, Nell Calloway and Max Baucus were interviewed separately. The interview with Calloway focused on General Chennault and the Flying Tigers, as well as the civil exchanges between China and the United States. The interview with Baucus focused on China-U.S. competition, the economic relationship between the two countries, and the influence of the U.S. Congress on China-U.S. relations. 

Max Baucus

When you were the United States Ambassador to China, you made trips to all of the provinces in mainland China. Which province is your favorite?

Max Baucus: I like them all. I like Chinese people, and all the provinces. I had a great time. And I like hot, spicy food. Sichuan cooking is very good.

During your service as a member of the Senate Committee on Finance, you were deeply involved in Congress’s approval of permanent normal trade relations with China in 2000 and in promoting China’s accession to the World Trade Organization in 2001. This has brought huge economic benefits to the United States while allowing China to achieve economic takeoff. But while the trade war between the U.S. and China is raging, there are voices in the U.S. saying that letting China join the WTO was a mistake. What do you think about this statement?

Max Baucus: I think it was the right thing to do. It was not a mistake. I think it’s far more important that China be a member of the WTO than be outside the WTO. Because if it’s a member of the WTO, then it’s going to be subject to WTO rules. If it’s outside of WTO, then it’s not subject to any rules. Now, the WTO could have more enforcement power. It could do a better job, but that’s a different issue. The question is, should China be part of WTO? I say, yes, it definitely should. I’m glad that I helped make that possible.

At the 2023 China-U.S. summit, President Xi and President Biden did not reach a strong consensus on promoting economic and trade development between the two countries. Do you think there is still a chance for China and the United States to return to collaborative globalization? How might this be possible?

Max Baucus: Not soon. It’ll take a while for them to return to globalization. Down the road, I hope, but not soon. The more both countries realize, and people in both countries realize, “Hey, we’ve got to work together,” the sooner we can return to globalization. Now, both have to protect their own national security, clearly. China must, the U.S. must. That’s paramount. But sometimes, each country lets national security be an excuse for commercial discrimination. I think it’s unfortunate. I think both countries should properly pass and execute national security statutes, but tailored to the actual national security worries, not to economic worries which prevent legitimate competition.

In their meeting, President Xi expressed hope that China and the United States would become partners, while President Biden made it clear that the two countries are still in competition. Is it possible that these very different expectations for the relationship could lead to deeper misunderstandings about each other in the future?

Max Baucus: Well, frankly, I think both countries are in a somewhat similar position, namely that each cares about itself. China cares about China. The United States cares about the United States. They’d like to cooperate. Both would like to cooperate and both are in… I would not say partnership, that’s a bit strong, but I do think both countries understand the need to cooperate.

At the same time, both countries are a bit competitive. There is some competition both ways. China’s competing a bit with the U.S. because China wants to grow and prosper. China wants to help its people earn good incomes, and China wants to be a major country in the region. That’s very understandable. It’s going to grow and compete and it’s investing in technologies of the future, especially renewable technologies – electrical vehicles, batteries, solar, and so forth. But the United States too wants to care for its people. They want decent income and to make sure their children are taken care of; they want to make sure that they can compete in a way that their future is assured.

The United States does not want to dominate China, and I’m sure most Chinese do not want to dominate the U.S. either. I think partnerships have been strong. Both countries are also looking for areas to cooperate. For example, President Xi and President Biden mentioned more military conversations. That’s a form of cooperation. In addition, they addressed dealing with fentanyl – trying to stop the development of fentanyl in the United States. There’s both competition and cooperation.

Someone said the outcome of this China-U.S. summit is like signing a pre-fight agreement for a boxing match. What do you think will be the outcome of the China-U.S. rivalry?

Max Baucus: I don’t think so. It’s not a prelude to a boxing match at all. I don’t agree with that at all. We’re two big countries trying to figure out how to work together. That’s really what it is.

I think eventually both countries are going to realize that we have to live with each other and find more cooperation. That seems to be the case today. China’s not going anywhere. China’s got a big country. China’s going to be on this earth for a long time. They’re a very proud country. The United States isn’t going anywhere. We’re a big, proud country. There’s no getting off this planet. We’re both on this planet together.

I like to frame it this way: it’s like an arranged marriage. In an arranged marriage, you have to figure out how to accommodate each other. We don’t love each other but it’s an arranged marriage, arranged by the geopolitical economic tectonic plates. We find ourselves as the two largest countries – rising power, established power. Eventually people and leadership are going to say, “Hey, we’re not going anywhere. We’re still here. Let’s figure out a way to work together.”

You served in the U.S. Congress for many years, do you think that in recent years there has been any difference in the way Congress has approached the issue of China-U.S. relations compared to the White House?

Max Baucus: Yes, I think members of Congress can say what they want to say. I mean, it is a freebie because they don’t have to be responsible for their actions. They can be very, very critical of China, introduce bills which are very critical of China. You’ll have press attention back home, helps them get reelected. Now, many really believe the substance of the legislation they’re introducing, but they don’t have to be responsible for its implementation.

However, the President of the United States has to be responsible for his actions. Therefore, I think that some members of Congress are going to be much more vitriolic and more intense in their criticism of China than will the President. Because the President, as the leader of the United States of America Executive Branch, knows he will be held responsible.

Do you think it’s possible for Congress to have a positive influence on the China-U.S. relationship in the future?

Max Baucus: It is possible. But it’s more possible that, the more members of Congress that visit China, the more they will find out that people are just people. Not just to have meetings with officials, but visit all around China – go to different provinces, taste all different kinds of pork, noodles and tofu. Chinese people are just like American people. That would help a lot. It would help the relationship significantly if more members of Congress were to visit China.

When I was serving over there, I fancifully thought it would be great if I could load up a stretch Boeing 747 and fill it up with members of Congress – fly them over to China for two weeks, help them get to know China. Of course, that’s impossible. But too few members of Congress know China because they have not visited. Some people in the United States in positions of power make a lot of strong statements against China having never been in China. I think that’s irresponsible.

Nell Calloway

What kind of person was General Chennault?

Nell Calloway: He was a very determined person. One of the things that I always admired about him was he never accepted “no” for an answer. He saw his very first airplane fly in 1910, only seven years after the first airplane ever flew. When he applied for flight training, he thought, “That’s something I really want to do.” In 1917, when World War I started, he joined the military and applied for flight training. But they told him, “You do not possess the necessary qualifications to be an aviator.” He was actually turned down three times. It wasn’t until his fourth try that he was accepted to even do flight training.

I love to tell kids that story because I’m like, if you really believe that you want to do something bad enough, you don’t give up. You keep trying. He studied aviation and when he got his wings, he knew that there had to be a better way to do combat with airplanes – better than what they did in World War I. He wrote a book about tactical pursuit, but he also formed an aerobatic act called Three Men on the Flying Trapeze. They used flight formations, and he said it wasn’t just a stunt like we see in air shows now. He was trying to figure out ways to have planes fly in formation and do Immelmann loops to turn around and fly back.

In his training when he finally was commander of the Flying Tigers, he taught them to always fly in pairs. Shoot, break away, turn around, and come back. Don’t ever stay there and don’t ever be alone because then that another plane will follow you. He was a determined person when he set his mind to something, but he also didn’t mind putting work into his studies.

How did his leadership of the Flying Tigers earn him respect in China?

Nell Calloway: He was a teacher by training. When he graduated from college, he graduated with a teaching certificate. I think that that helped him a lot.

And when he was a very young boy, only eight years old, his mother died. I think that was a very difficult time for him. Back then parents let kids do more than they do now. Sometimes even at nine or ten years old, he went off into the woods and spend two days there by himself. He would try to hunt or fish to find something to eat. He depended upon himself – he could do anything he wanted to do if he was determined and put his mind to it. He had a sense of survival. That would really help him later on.

Then when the men came, because of his teaching abilities, he was able to be a good instructor. When the Flying Tigers first started arriving in China, because the planes were so few – they only had 100 – he couldn’t risk them being damaged. He made them go through at least 40 hours of classroom instruction before he ever let them fly an airplane. That was hard for them because all of them were pilots, and they thought, “Well, we already know how to fly airplanes. We don’t need that.” But he insisted on that training.

What other things did General Chennault do to promote positive China-U.S. relations after World War II?

Nell Calloway: Well, that gets a little bit controversial. He started an airline which he’s never been given credit for because he was helping the Chinese Nationalist Party at the same time. He started this airline that actually saved millions of Chinese lives. Like I said, he’s never been given credit for that. It was one of the very first civilian airlines in China.

In southern China, the Japanese had destroyed everything in the villages. They killed all the animals and destroyed the crops. The Chinese villagers had no way to replenish the crops. The airline that General Chennault started was called the Civil Air Transport or CAT. It would be half-filled with passengers in the front, and the back half of the airplane would hold animals and agricultural products. He would take those into the villages so that they could start replenishing their crops and have animals like goats for milk. He did a lot after the war to try to help the Chinese people.

President Xi said that the Chinese people have not forgotten the Flying Tigers and the friendship between the Chinese and American people who helped each other during the war. How do you think this history of the Flying Tigers helping the Chinese people will stabilize Sino-American relations in today’s turbulent times?

Nell Calloway: My grandfather wrote in the last sentence of his book, “It is my fondest hope that the sign of the Flying Tiger will remain aloft just as long as it is needed on both shores of the Pacific to show two great peoples working toward a common goal in war and peace.”

I had a reporter from Taiwan ask me, “I want to know, how can you justify going to Taiwan after you’ve been to mainland China so many times?” I told her, “I’m glad you asked me that question.” Because what everybody needs to remember is my grandfather went to China in 1937 and he saw what the Japanese were doing to the Chinese people. The Japanese were bombing the Communists and the Nationalists, and eventually the Japanese bombed the United States. If we had not all banded together, then our world would be very different today.

It’s important to know what we accomplished. Because before the war, China and the United States were not friends. If you compare it to a situation like we have today, we were supplying Japan with the oil and copper to let them do what they were doing to the Chinese people. We had to change all of that to defeat the Japanese. My grandfather understood very, very early on that Japan would not stop with China, that eventually Japan would come after the United States. That’s what I said, he loved both countries and he was willing to give his life for both.

If you look at the messages from Chinese netizens on the U.S. Embassy’s Weibo account, you’ll find a lot of tough words. They seldom mention the deep friendship between Chinese and American soldiers and civilians during World War II. What do you think of this phenomenon?

Nell Calloway: I think tough arguments should only be between politicians. Our countries rule through power and strength. If politicians aren’t strong and tough, that makes them look weak, and they’re afraid that the other country will take advantage of that weakness.

However, what we need consider what we can do on a people to people exchange. The people aren’t like that at all. I was in China a few weeks ago, and I wanted to reach out to every Chinese person I saw. I wanted to shake their hands and speak to them. Because I wanted them to realize that as Americans, we still want to be their friends. They were so responsive to the group that we had over there. I mean, they were just incredibly kind and appreciative of my grandfather and the Flying Tigers. They knew their history.

The news media is a problem, in my opinion, on both sides. They like to report the bad because they think it’s what people want to hear. I think if they started reporting good news, it would be very different. I think they would pick up a lot more readers. You can’t believe what you hear in the news. All you can believe is what you experience yourself.

In the 2023 summit between President Xi and President Biden, President Xi described the China-U.S. relationship as one between partner, but President Biden framed the China-U.S. relationship as one between competitors. What do you think of those two different statements?

Nell Calloway: Well, I think they both can be true. I think we are competitors in certain areas, but I also think we’re partners in certain areas. I think President Xi and President Biden realize we’re the number one, number two superpower. We have a responsibility to be partners and to take that very seriously. But in world market, we are also competitors.

I’ve interviewed a lot of veterans myself because we do that at the museum. We are partnered with the Library of Congress in Washington D.C, so I videotape their stories and we send it to Washington. The common theme they bring up is how we fought together like brothers. We should think about ourselves being united as a family during World War II and what we were able to overcome and accomplish together. Families don’t always get along, but they always have that common bond. If we remember our history, that we have that common bond, that’ll help us overcome some of the problems and issues that we have now.